It has been a minute.

Oh, what up gang?

I have been so busy lately, we had a
big launch at crunchy this week and the

work that, uh, I had to do going into
it meant that I had to take the pedal

off the metal, so to speak of some of
these like extra fun things that I do.

But.

As I said, they're fun.

So I'm back and I'm back with a guest.

Today with me is going to
be John Rudolph Drexler.

He is a co-owner of thunk.

Uh, if you don't know what
funk is, thunk is an agency.

They specialize in building a
liable soft software in level, uh,

and also in product management.

John specifically has like a
very unique and, uh, talented

skillset in product management.

Lots of opinions there as well as lots
of opinions on game design, he had

creates board games and like video games.

As well, um, But he's just an all
around great guy and this chat.

Was fantastic.

I think you're really going to enjoy it.

Without further ado, let's get into it.

This is episode 12 of strong opinions.

Weakly held.

Let's do.

Alrighty.

Uh, we're here today with John Drexler.

Um, great to have you on.

Um, you told me before you got on, you
went from not knowing anything about

this podcast to telling me that you had
an entire note filled with opinions.

I have, uh,

going today.

what am I looking at?

I'm looking at like, uh, I think I'm
looking at like 11 hot takes, uh,

Oh, 11.

That's fantastic.

I have a couple of questions as well
that I think we'll be able to, uh,

maybe tease some more out of you, but

perfect.

Yeah.

You, I mean, you give me a, you intro
invite me to create a new notes file

about, uh, strong opinions loosely
held, and I'm like, oh my goodness.

This is, this is the
podcast I'm meant to be on.

I got that.

So I listened to your episode
of everything is interesting.

Um, a couple of days ago.

And then I have recently fallen down
the rabbit hole of talking business.

Lee.

So I know that you are not, you and
Daniel are not shy, um, in opinions

that you hold and also not shy with
being like, that was a dumb opinion

later, which is like my favorite

that's going to be one of my, that's
going to be one of mine coming up.

That's a tease that for later.

There we go.

All right.

So why don't we, let's do it.

Let's do it this way.

Um, I've got like some questions
myself, but I don't want to start

out with like my questions that
they'll, they will I imagine just

naturally fall in at some point.

So let's start with just from that list.

Since you came in with a great
list, what is like one, uh, from

the list that you're like, you were
excited to share and talk about?

Um, Oh yeah.

The, I think it's the one that we just
teased was not, is not necessarily

on one that I'm excited about.

Uh, but the, uh, so I
won't, I won't start there.

I'll start, uh, I'll start with this.

Maybe I'll say, uh, that I learned.

A while ago that.

Ship I should spend how to say
this I want to spend like 10 times

as much time Shipping as I want
to spend commentating on things

And I realized this when it was like in
like 2016 There was like the internet

was ablaze and it I found myself Like
drinking from the fire hose of just like

I need to know everyone's angry take
about everything and I need to have an

angry take about everything and I I like
Got I like spun myself into a frenzy and

became very unhappy And I actually at
the time deleted twitter and facebook

and I like didn't log into instagram for
like four years and was like I resolved

just like i'm gonna come back When I
have something to share, uh, and went

out at that time and like, got into
Brazilian jujitsu and game design and like

decided, like, I'm going to do whatever
it takes to become a product manager.

And I will log back in when I have.

When I'm like, when it's time for
me to say like, hey guys, I've done

something that I want to share.

Um, cause I didn't want my whole online
experience to just be like, yelling

with other people who were yelling.

Right.

Right.

Right.

And I am now, once again,
on the precipice of that.

Uh, and I have been like,
I've been like, drafting.

angry tweets and not Not pressing send
tweet For like a while now and like

there's there i've and uh, that's that's
uh, that's something that's like i'm i'm

mostly saying it to myself because I hate
it when other people are like uh yell at

people about that like especially from
online if i'm gonna like get on twitter

and be like hey everybody you should Be
like just tweeting about stuff you're

shipping and nothing else like whatever.

I don't care what anyone else tweets
about but i'm yelling at myself

about this because uh You I am like,
once again, I, I feel the siren

song of being like more noise on the
internet and I'm like, forget this.

I want to make games and
I want to make software.

And the only thing I want to talk about
is like, Hey guys, look what I made.

Are you excited with me?

You know?

let's

Hey, look at that thing

I just did, and you tell me
things that you've made that,

like, this made you think of.

Yes.

And I love following those
people too, who just like

Okay.

What,

like, I made a thing.

Yeah,

those years that may have triggered,
triggered, is, is it like, is it related

to like the, like the political, not
necessarily, like, we don't have to

dive into like politics per se, but
is it like, just like in this time

period, people tend to be more vocal
about opinions due to like the flux of

what's going on in like personal lives
in their, like in the country, that

kind of thing, or do you think it is?

It's like stuff unrelated to that.

And you just think like, people
get into these like phases

of just like talking to talk

I think it, I mean, I definitely
think that the election

cycle is like a big thing.

Um, and I don't, I mean, it's not
even really that I, I don't want to

bury my head in the sand about it.

It's just like, it's not what I want
to, it's not really what I want to

spend like presidential politics are not
something that I really want to spend.

a lot of my personal life thinking
about, but I'm very susceptible to it.

And also, frankly, I'm,
I'm just like angry.

And I'm not just sort of like angry, like
at Republicans, although like I am not a

Republican and I am angry at Republicans.

I'm like angry at everybody

right, right, right, right, right, right.

like I'm, I'm so mad
and it is unbelievable.

The reason I that I like lead with this
that I like I is because it's so front

of mind for me is not because I have like
become the Buddha and I've escaped the

conversation and I'm like no longer mad.

It's like because I'm angry.

I am such a tinderbox about it and like it

it's like your defense mechanism for it.

Yeah, it's so easy to draw me in and I I
can get into this like kind of arrogant

position of being like actually I know
why everyone's wrong It's like nobody.

Nobody needs that take.

I also am wrong about that.

I don't know why everyone's wrong And so
like part I guess part of the like Part

of it is like I don't want to contribute
sparks to everybody else's tinderbox.

I Also like the more angry
posting I do the angrier I become

and then i'm like I don't know.

I'm either arguing with people or like
sitting in an echo chamber or whatever

and it's just like I guess the way that I
said it to somebody the other day because

I think I think the internet also gets
really really frothy around trump and

whether whether pro or anti I He just, he
just makes headlines and then he creates

10 million tweets about those headlines.

And I, I'm just absolutely determined
that as I look back, I'm 34 right now.

Um, when I'm 38, I do not want to
look back and say, yeah, I spent a,

like a huge portion of those four
years just like foaming at the mouth.

being mad, reading minute to
minute tweets about this stuff.

Yep.

I would love to look back at this time
and be like, yeah, I made a lot of stuff

and I was kind to the people around me.

Yep.

Friend, friend of, friend of the pod,
friend of ours, uh, Aaron Francis,

wrote a fantastic article about this.

Which is just the, like, if you
cannot influence, then you just need

to not worry about it, basically.

Like, there, there is a world in
which you have influence over.

And the way to be depressed or a way to
just be angry without a solution is to

try to, try to like, try to influence
things you have no control over.

And like you're saying, like
presidential politics, you, you have

a vote, but you do not have influence.

So

Yeah.

Right.

getting angry and upset about it is
just going to cause you heartache.

In the long term, not that you shouldn't,
like you mentioned, like, not that you

should bury your head in the sand, not
that you shouldn't form your own opinions

about it or think about it personally,
but I think to like one opinion that I

have about these kinds of things, because
I'm sure I differ in a lot of my beliefs

and a lot of my opinions on things from
people, but like the internet is not the

place to, to have those conversations.

It's like in person where you can,
where you can like actually understand.

The other person's point of view because
like when it comes down to it like in one

sense both of y'all really want the same
thing You just have a different point of

view and how you're trying to get to it.

And if you just give the other person
that understanding, then like you can

have a profitable conversation out of it.

Even if you continue to disagree,
cause you know that the person

doesn't like hate you when they're
talking about that kind of stuff.

But like on the internet, it's
like impossible not to feel

like, like it's, You don't get
to have that one-on-One moment.

Because as soon as the conversation
starts, like, especially like you

mentioned with like anything related
to Trump or politics or that kind

of stuff, like it just seems like
everyone piles in and things get heated

and there's no way to unhea unhea
things once they are going, Mm-Hmm.

Yeah, I think, uh, what you're getting
at also, like, ties into what I think

is the antidote for a lot of this stuff,
which is like, go smaller, and go more,

like, local, and go into, like, be kind
to your family, be kind to your literal

neighbors, like, Be a good parent, be a
good citizen, be, you know, like help out

at the local library, you know, like that
type of local, you know, uh, understand

if, yeah, if you really want to like
get into politics, like go understand

what's happening at city hall or, you
know, and like, like that kind of stuff.

Cause I think that's.

You have actually quite a
bit more influence there.

Um, and the, uh, the odds of you
making a difference are much higher.

Um, just volunteering and being
a good neighbor, uh, and being a

good parent and that kind of stuff.

So in some ways I'm like
that, that's where the, that's

where the real virtue is.

And part of that for me is like
my favorite thing to do with the

people around me is make stuff.

And, uh, that's a very like friend
focused, community focused thing for me.

So, uh, part of the antidote to all of
this is just like, I, I want to be kind

of done commentating and just be like
someone who is like kind and make stuff.

You know?

Yes.

I, I feel the same way.

And I go through, so like, I, I'm
constantly building stuff, but

just because I'm building something
doesn't mean I have formulated

an opinion about something yet.

And so I have a blog and I have like a
personal site and I used to like feel

bad that I would write a bunch of stuff
and then I'd stop for a really long time.

Cause I'm like, you gotta be consistent.

Like you gotta be putting out
content on a regular basis.

If you want to, gather attention
and be able to like build anything

of worth from your content.

And the more I like, the more I do that,
the more I realize like, no, because

like my best content comes when I'm
Inspired by something that I've done to

trigger, trigger some sort of opinion
or like synthesis, synthesis, I'm going

to make up a word here, synthesization.

A moment, a moment, a moment
where I need to like synthesize

something that's triggered in my
mind and I need to process that.

Uh, and like that's when I go to writing.

It's like I need to process
something that I don't like.

That just clicked for me because I was
doing and now I have something now I

have something to share something to
say Because like i've now done the work

of like doing it Synthesizing it and
i'm going to try and like share that to

you and like I don't mind I don't mind

Putting out content that's like mine
and being like hey, like I would

love for you to read this at that
point Because it's not like this hand

wavy thought leader Type content.

It's like no like hey, I did this
thing and like this is something

that I feel as a result of
that Like do you feel that too?

Or like, does this help you crystallize
something that you've been feeling?

So like a lot of my content went from
being like guides of like, here's how

to do this, here's how to do this to
like, uh, like, Hey, I been through this

process of like feeling creative drain.

Here's how I learned how to
like create new things and not

just more of the same things.

And like, this is how that worked for me.

Like stuff like that.

So I like that feels that clicks
with me a lot where it's just

like you, you need to be doing.

It's so funny, uh, that you said that,
cause I've been trying, so I've been

trying to speak more and like, there's
two things that I've been like trying

to actively do more of, which is speak
and then if I have something that's

like a really, that I think is like
a really crystallized, good, helpful

thought, I'll, you know, try to make
like a little one minute video and I've

done each of these things like I've done
each of these things like twice ever.

Uh, and I was talking to somebody.

The other day it was like,
man, I really enjoyed those.

Like, you should start
making like a video a week.

You should start talking all the time.

Now!

like, dog, like, that, the reason
that that one minute video was

good was because that was a thought
that crystallized over eight years.

Like,

Yes, yes, yes.

I don't have 50 of those a year.

Like, I have like two of

you shouldn't!

My goodness.

Like I

There is Something that is like floating
around in my head with you saying that

which is just like I really like if you
think about like a lot of content creators

Like you get you get this Nowadays, it's
known like nowadays It is like this is

the pattern that you should do if you
want to find success as like a creator

of some content Which is like you pick a
thing and you hammer on that thing Until

you are known as the person for that thing
And that's like what it's known as now.

But like, I have this like idea
that like that probably just started

because of the thing that you and I
are talking about right now, where

it's like, people who created content
probably really just started creating

content on a single thing, because
that's the only thing that they felt so

strongly about to do that consistently.

Like, and I noticed that like a
lot of my, my work and a lot of the

things that I talk to people about,
to others about, related to that, is

generally like the same type thing.

Like it may have like a different angle
on it, or it may have like a different

like take for their context, but it really
fa fa like falls within this like Venn

diagram of, of like these topics that
I just feel very passionately about.

Even if that might just be like slightly
different for like the context that

I'm in and it's like that's now known
as like a content marketing like

Strategy, but I think it just comes
from like a deeper place of like that's

how you actually get experts Like it's
actually how you get people who can

like create content worth listening to

Yeah, I think that's right.

I, it reminds me also of, uh,
this is such a random, I want

to find the actual name of it.

I think it's called
the engineering method.

Uh, there's this, there's this
great YouTube channel and maybe

that's just a common term.

I should have done my research
before bringing this up, but, uh,

no research needed.

perfect, um, there's this like
idea out there that I find really

interesting, which is that.

Um, a lot of the like mathematical
breakthroughs and scientific

breakthroughs that we've had.

Um, did not come from academics, they
came from just like engineers who were

like doing stuff in the field or like,
like people like stone masons who had

apprentices, they'll, you know, a chain
of apprentices over like, you know, 4000

years, and they eventually figured out
how to make a perfect arc, which happened

to like, demonstrate some important ideas
and geometry, and then like, later on,

a very smart, you know, Person would
like come along and be like, observe

this and be like, oh, interesting.

Like, this

the mathematical, scientific
basis for that being true.

yes.

And then we name, we name the thing
after like the egghead who, you know,

put it into writing, which is great.

Like, that's a very important skill too.

But it's like, this guy is like this.

I think he's an engineer or an architect.

And he's basically just like talking
about that's How even like ancient people

just like figure this stuff out by like
doing and it's like later on we can

abstract some sort of like truth out of
it and be like, Oh, interesting, like all

of these apprentices know how to do X.

And the reason that this works is
like, Oh, we could put that into a

formula that's useful to teach to kids.

Great.

That's really cool.

But like, it came out of like thousands of
years of just like work like people just

like working and making stuff, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, so this is, this is really
funny because I started, like, going

into this conversation, the more I
listened to Talking Businessly and,

like, reading your content and posts and
stuff, I realized, like, you and me, I

think our perspective on our The type of
work that we do is like a Venn diagram.

Like we, we have some differences,
but like, there's a lot of the ways

that we think and approach product
and engineering that is very similar.

And you having this floating around
your head is hilarious because it

is also floating around in my head.

So I was like curious just
to see like what's the

Funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I saw a tweet the other day, uh,
that was a quote from once again,

should have done the research, but
I didn't know the research required.

Y'all can look this up yourself.

Um, but the quote, the quote was
basically like somebody observing

about like the benefits of academics,
which was just like, yes, everyone

on a base level will be smarter.

Um, but we're going to lose our
excellence through academics.

And the reason is exactly, exactly the
reason you're saying, which is we are, we

are moving more and more formulaic into
saying like, this is how things are done.

And like, you're going to remember
these, these trodden pathways.

And what got us those trodden
pathways was not somebody in that

time period trotting well known
pathways, it was from explorers.

And like, academics, uh, is, is hampering
the number of explorers that we have

in every generation in some ways.

And like, I don't know how true that
is as like a general blanket statement,

but you can, I can see that in
myself and I can see that in others.

Thank you very much.

Where it is like so easy, especially
like if you think about like product

and design, um, I attribute this to like
finding like soul in a product a lot.

Like you get people who talk about scale,
you get people who talk about like, well,

like, and with engineers, like I need to
build this in a way that like can handle

millions of like, Requests the second or
like a design that's like this needs to

be like scalable to it like a design org
of like a hundred plus designers And like

you you it's like the same with academics
where it's like, okay, we're trying to

like scale things create reusable things
create like pathways for things and What

you lose is the upside of like exploring
something new and like unknown And like,

yes, there is more risk inherent with
that of failing, but the upside of finding

something no one else has done before
and unlocking that is like so high.

Like you've got, you've got to
find time to do that for yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I, you know, it's funny
because the, um, I, the way that

I learned to write code was.

That, um, we were working on a game
and games are hard and Daniel would,

uh, Daniel was like, I'll teach you to
write code, but what we'll do is like,

once a week, I'll give you a hard task.

It's a little bit past what
you're comfortable doing.

You go try to do it and then come
back to me and I'll code review it

and tell you how I would have done it.

Um, And in some ways it's like just the
perfect, it was the perfect way to learn.

There's I'm actually, I, so I was
just, I was joking about this on,

uh, blue sky the other day, but it
was like, I, I accidentally wrote

a second conference talk this week.

Um, cause I was, I was trying to like,

funny.

Right.

added 30 minutes.

Oh, I guess this is a separate talk.

Uh, so, uh, but it's, it's about.

This in some ways, because it's
like, if you really think about

it, this is how people learn
stuff in especially programmers.

Uh, it's very obvious that this is
how people learn stuff, but we forget

that this is how people learn stuff.

And the, like the guiding metaphor, I
guess, uh, analogy, whatever of, of the,

the talk I want to give, which I want to
title, like how to get good, uh, is like.

This, I, at Jiu Jitsu, I have this
instructor who is really smart

and he, uh, did, he basically
teaches Jiu Jitsu differently

from how everyone else teaches it.

Um, most people you go in and you spend 15
minutes like learning a piece of technique

that'll be like really detailed and then
you like practice it with a partner.

And then you go back and he's like,
no, do this a little differently.

Do this specific thing differently.

You guys are getting this grip wrong.

And then you go do it
again and then come back.

And he's like, and here's the
next thing you do after that.

And it's almost like
learning a dance, you know?

Uh, and it really is a great way
to like download all of like the

knowledge that exists about jujitsu
into your brain, which is, there's

something useful about that.

It's not like it's not useful.

Um, but what my instructor does
instead is he's just like, He's

like, uh, okay, uh, Will, you're
going to start on John's back.

Obviously, John, your goal
is to like, get out of that.

Cause that's a very dangerous
position and stand up.

Will, your goal is to like retain the
position and finish and like choke him.

Go.

And then we just like go.

And like, we have three minutes of
you attacking and three minutes of me

attacking, and then he comes back and he's
like, okay, let's talk about some like

broad principles of what's going on here.

Um, and he doesn't, he doesn't get into,
he does sometimes, but he very rarely gets

into like prescriptive, like you do this
and then you do this and then you do this

this is, this is the snake hold.

This is how you break it.

Like step one, two, three.

It's

It's, it's more like, Hey, he's like, Hey,
so I'm noticing a lot of people are like

rolling over to their back to get off.

This is not wrong, but here's
the pros and cons of doing that.

Okay.

I'm noticing another, a lot of people
trying to get out without actually

breaking grips, that's interesting.

You could do it that way.

I don't prefer to, and here's why.

Okay, let's do it again
and let's run it back.

And then we just run it back.

And we do that for like an hour.

And the first couple of times I
went to these classes, I was like,

I'm spending an hour stuck in this
position that I'm really bad at.

And he's like, yeah, exactly.

Like just keep on working it
until like you and your body

understand what you're doing here.

You know?

my goodness.

Okay.

This is like, This is how
higher education, in my

opinion, should be done anyway.

Like, it makes sense that, like, a
younger age, that you've got to Like,

education is fantastic, in that it teaches
you, like, principles and basics in a

formulaic way that, like, gives you a
foundation for just being able to speak

the language, literally, sometimes.

But, like, also just, like,
mathematically and all that.

But, like, there comes a point in
which, like, You've got to be able to

flip this switch like you're talking
about, which is like, okay, well now

we're just going to put you in these
positions that you've got to solve these

problems, and you're going to flounder,
a bunch of different ways, and then

we'll talk about pros and cons of all
the things I observed you trying to do,

versus like, hey, memorize these things.

Man, I love that.

I talk about, I talked about that, um,
Actually, with somebody, um, today on

Blue Sky as well, uh, they were kind of
talking about how they like to learn,

and it was like, yeah, I don't do, like,
the best thing for my career was having

to learn by myself, and I was like, I
agree in part, like, I think for me,

like, I've got to learn on my own at
first so that I get a lay of the land.

And then I have my, I have formed my own
opinions enough that I can get advice or

like feedback from somebody else and know,
know where to ask the right questions

to get more out of that interaction.

Um, so, man, I love that.

I love that.

Okay.

That.

Was it good that these are the I
need to have more people on you're

like the first like true guest that
I've had on And I was I'm I think

this is gonna be fun So I need to do
more of these cuz like this is great.

Give me another one.

What you got?

Alright, well, I'm trying to
think of how to organize this.

Do you want me to read a couple out
and then you decide which ones you want

to talk about or how do you want to

Sure Okay, actually, I've got I've
got one Let's see if any of these fall

under this kind of like question that
came to mind Which is like you are a

game designer Board and computer game.

Um, it is something you're like
passionate about and you enjoy.

Is that, am I characterizing
you correctly in that?

Um, but you like for your day job,
you are a like co founder owner of a

like web development agency, product
development agency called Thunk.

How, how, like, do you have opinions on
things that like, because of like your

passion and your experience in like
game design and stuff, how that overlaps

with like the work that you do at Thunk?

Yeah, it overlaps in
some interesting ways.

I mean, one is I just, this is like
the talk that I just gave that I

I've been talking a lot about this
recently, just because I've been

thinking about it a lot recently.

But, uh, so, uh, for anyone who's
listening, uh, I haven't met before.

I run a podcast.

Agency with my good friend Daniel Colborne
and we have and we make software and

the reason that that agency exists is
because we were making a game together

and the game did not work and out of
that we created basically a really

good software development team led
by him because he's like a killer.

Programmer and I'm a product manager
who was like kind of a more junior

programmer and then Jacob who also
works with us was on the team as well.

And so there just came a point where
we're like, the three of us are like

pretty good at making stuff together
and we could do this for money.

Uh, and the game didn't make any
money, but we could, you know,

our, our clients pay us money
and they're very happy with us.

So that's like what, at a
fundamental level, it overlaps there.

Cause it's like, it just like,
that's literally how it happened.

Um, It's interesting, because I think,
like, the product management is a lot

about, like, just how to make things, um,

and what to make like, not only how to
make things, but like what the, the,

the, what behind making them as well.

Yes, and and and like why are you
approaching it that way and what matters

here and what doesn't matter and let's
not waste time on stuff that doesn't

matter and Um, let's have some sort of
sane process for continuous improvement

That's not burdensome, etc, etc All of
those things add up to like like all of

those things have made me better at making
games, you know um for sure, uh, because

it's like I I think product management
is just like a really good broad set of

principles that are like You You know,
you can have a product manager for a

medical device in the same way that
you could have a product manager for a

software product or product manager for
a rubber made trash can or whatever, you

know, like you can have it for And that's
because it's just like a, it's just a

really broadly useful set of ideas and
principles, um, that are quite flexible.

So making a game in some
way is really no different.

Um, and so I think, uh, getting,
becoming a, uh, becoming a proficient

product manager was extremely helpful.

And then, uh, becoming a programmer,
uh, I think it really, really.

helps to think about ideas and, uh, think
about ideas and models and structures

in abstract terms, um, and think about,
like, the logical relationships between

things, um, and that has, I think that
has also made me a better game designer.

Mm

this is a big one.

The, um, you said, um, On one of your,
your previous podcasts, what felt like a

good opinion that I held as well, which
was like, you don't always need a product

manager in your company, but your company
is always product managing, like whether

you have a product manager or not, like
by nature of building a product, you're

going to be doing some product management.

So like you need to learn.

You either need to hire
one or be one in some form.

And like there are a lot of there, it's
like the 80 20 rule where there's like,

there's a lot of like 80 percent of good.

You can get, uh, like you can get 80
percent of the benefit from like a

very small amount of just like product
management thinking and approaching,

uh, to like, to your product.

If you just like knew they existed.

Yeah.

it's, um, in some ways it's, it's
not the right comparison exactly,

but like one thing I think a lot of
full stack developers know is that

like, you don't have to be a designer,
but if you know, some like super

obvious design, one on one stuff.

You're just going to be like
noticeably better out the gates.

Um, it's kind of like that.

Uh, and I think like, yeah, the, I
guess, I think the point that I was

making, which I, I joke about this
all the time is like, uh, uh, it's

like, I have fully stolen this joke
from this guy, uh, named Rusty Roof,

and I need to start giving him credit.

Uh, and, um, but he,
he, it was interesting.

This guy, Rusty, was this guy who,
uh, he was like a big HR guy who

like did this at like Pepsi and EA
and these other companies like that.

And I heard him giving a
talk about company culture.

And he was like, some of you might think
like, Oh, we don't do culture here.

Like we're not culture guys.

We just do business.

And he's like, trust me,
your company has a culture.

And if you're not like consciously
thinking about that, that's like

saying we don't do hygiene here.

Like, Oh, you're, you're doing it.

hygiene, right?

Yeah.

Like you're doing it.

You're just doing such a bad job that
everyone knows you stink, you know?

Yeah.

and I feel the same way about
product management where it's if

you're baking a thing, like you.

Are necessarily making decisions
about priority road map.

You just might be doing
those things implicitly.

And if you're doing them all implicitly,
you're probably not doing a very good job.

Yeah, or you're getting
very lucky, one or the

Yeah, or you're getting very lucky, uh,
or just like your intuition is so good

that you don't even have to consciously
write it down and you have a small

enough team that that's not a problem.

Like, that's a thing too.

Sure.

Uh, like, I think, like, I honestly
think Taylor Outwell, for example, at

Laravel has, has just been like, he,

a fine tuned intuition on,
like, what makes good APIs

and, like, a framework good.

And part of that is that
he is the user, right?

So like he had a tweet
the other day about like.

You know, like you really shouldn't
have to talk to customers that much.

And it's like, well, yeah,
in your case, that's true.

Like, like you are the customer and you
have like a pitch perfect intuition.

Yes.

That is true for you.

Yeah.

Hey, like if you could build anything
else, what, like, what would you build?

And he was just like, man, I don't know.

I don't really have ideas.

Like I'm not an idea, man.

Like I don't just come up with stuff.

It's just like I'm using this
and I realize I need something.

And so I make it because I need it.

And I'm like, yep, there we

Yeah, and like that's totally valid and
I just think like most businesses are

not that um, And like the you know, his
case is completely valid and it's great

Uh, and he is again He's he is making
priority decisions and scoping decisions

and scoping things down so that he can
ship more often He is doing all of that.

It's just he's able to kind of do it all
implicitly But even now as laravel has

continued to grow, I think they employ
product managers now, you know, because

now it's like You There's a big enough

scope is too wide to get his opinion
on every tiny decision for sure.

Interesting.

Well, cool.

Okay.

Uh, the follow up question that I
had related to that was like, have

you ever found yourself in a trap?

Like between the two where, um, like
I do this sometimes where I'll like

conflate learning something in one area.

Yeah.

Yeah.

By trying to apply it.

This one's like one of those
like, you probably, you might not.

Um, but like sometimes I'll run
into like an issue where it's like,

Oh yeah, I learned this thing.

Let me try to apply it.

Like here as well.

And then it's just like, Doesn't work.

That's an interesting question.

I'm trying to think of a good example.

You know, like one, uh, Hmm.

Like there, there are certain things
actually, one of the things that came

up in the conversation I had with
Travis, where he was like, like, cause

this always comes up whenever I talk
to software developers is about the

complexity of board games is that
they're all like, people always jump

to, like, I wish you could just write
tests and I'm like, writing tests for a

board game is like, not really feasible.

Like, I guess I could do it, but
at that point I would have like

built out the entire backend
logic of like, How the board game

works in a, uh, in a, in a thing.

That's, that's a whole,
that's an interesting area.

Um, I'm trying to think of other things.

I mean, one place where like, I
guess this, I can, this is, I'm

slightly shoe horning one of my
things and to answer your question.

So I'm going to, I'm going to sort of
like orthogonally answer your question.

Um,

Look over there, all right, by the way.

exactly.

Yeah.

So one of the things I had written
down and I promise this relates

is, uh, distribution is harder than
development, uh, which is a generalization

and it's, it's whatever, but.

One thing is that the, I was product
manager at two different companies.

One of them was an early stage startup
that failed where I was like in

tight, I was working really closely
with the business development guy.

Um, and so like we were going around
and talking to all the early customers

to get them to adopt the thing.

But like I was like on payroll working
with someone who was really competent at

BD and kind of like following him around
and like, uh, and working together.

And like, that was a
really good experience.

But then.

And like we did sell it to some early
customers and it was like thrilling and

really, you know, it's, it's exciting.

Um, and then the second company
I worked at just had, like, I was

there for like over three years and
they had like a killer sales team.

They were just like crushing it
and they were so good at like

finding relationships, developing
the relationships, getting

it out there and selling it.

And I would join on some of their calls.

Um, but like, I didn't, I kind of let
those muscles atrophy for a while.

Um, and.

They would like give me requirements.

They're like, Oh yeah, this,
this, this big client is going to

come in, but they need X, Y, Z.

And then we'd like kind of work
together to like, that was the

extent of my interaction with,

Mm hmm.

some of the sales stuff.

And it kind of made me forget for
a little bit that distribution

is like the whole game.

Like if you are a software developer
sitting at home, as I've been a number

of times and said, I hate X, Y, Z.

I'm going to build a better version.

You probably can like pretty fast.

It's like, not that hard.

Like building software in
2024 is like, not that hard.

I've got a big topic
on that one, for sure.

And it's like, like, yeah, you
could, you could build whatever.

Like I, I did this recently where
I was like, no one tracks problems

the exact way that I like to do it.

And so I built this thing
called paper cuts to do it.

And I'm really happy with it.

I use it every day.

I basically built a product for
myself because I was like, There's

a, there's a, there's a product
that is not out on the market.

I'm going to try to build it.

And then, uh, we had this kind of like
flight of fancy conversation about like,

Oh, maybe we should like, you know, try
to sell this thing and like, you know,

again, it's just, I forgot for a second
that like, yeah, building it is easy

building the exact thing that you want,

some personal opinions on how
something should be done is not

right.

Yeah.

And like,

same opinions, and finding the
people who hold the same opinions

as you, and getting this in front
of them enough times that they're

like, Oh, I do actually want that, is

And I think it's like, I think there's
a thing where software developers are

like, are kind of malign the sales
guys and the marketing people and like,

sure, fair enough, because like a lot
of those people are douchebags, but,

ha!

but they did, they're like,
they do something that the

rest of the company can't do.

And if they didn't do it,
the company doesn't exist.

yes, I mean distribution is the hardest
part and there are people who are

like clearly like very talented at it.

Yeah.

And it's really easy to know when somebody
like built something without thinking

how they were going to sell something.

And they're like, why does
the, the, the phrase build it?

And they will come,
it's just not, not true.

Um, there is this, so there's like
this, this phrase that I've been

noodling on this opinion, which is
like software, Software is saturated.

Like software is really saturated now.

Uh, And that's like why
distribution is so hard.

Because it used to be like, It's
hard to like evolve, With a market.

Um, Because like, So many times
you want to do like best practices.

Um, or like do the things that people
are preaching about that just work.

And for the longest time, like as
software, like specifically SAS

was becoming a thing, like you
could just build a SAS and like,

you were like one of maybe two
people built solving that problem.

And you could just like, people would
just come and find you because like,

they were searching for the solution and
like, you are the only person solving it.

But like now.

For every problem, there are like
dozens, sometimes like way more than

that, solutions for like every, every
market that you could be getting into.

Like somebody's already built something
in it and is, and is solving that problem.

So like now, like you're saying,
like now it's so much more.

And like you're, you run into that
with the game industry probably like.

People in the game industry already
know that because like games have been

around a lot longer than software So
like the distribution thing I'm sure

is getting harder, but like has been
hard for probably a pretty long time

Yeah.

Yeah, and

saturated,

totally, and I, I think
that's, I think that's right.

And it's, um, it, Bye bye.

I guess that, so to answer the original
question, I guess, like, I think, uh,

what, what I have a huge amount of
confidence in is like managing the

development of something that's good.

Um, and I, I'm like, I can do that.

I know how to do that.

Um, and when I go to like, when I went
to go make a software product that was

like, I'm going to go scratch my own edge.

I'm going to do what Taylor did
and just be like, I'm going to

make something that just works.

I did it and I made paper cuts and I
was like, I freaking love this thing.

I'm so proud of it.

Um, but then I was like, Oh, right.

Like, there's this whole other part of
the equation, which is like actually

like marketing it and selling it.

And if I'm working with a talented
team of people, which I've always

worked with really good salespeople,
um, Then it's like, well, great.

The thing that I made
that's good is being bought.

Um, and in the case of like paper cuts,
I'm like, well, I don't really have the

time or energy to go sell this thing.

And we are not going to
like hire a makeshift sales

team to go put it out there.

So like, we don't have
customers and that's like, okay.

Like I'm, I'm kind of at peace with it.

Cause it is like, it's just
not really, uh, It, that wasn't

really the, the goal with it, but.

It just, it was a good slap in the
face reminder of like, yeah, dude, like

building this thing was not the hard part.

And so similarly with the game, I, I made
a board game and I've been, I just talked

to the, I guess with Daniel and Travis
each recently about this, but like, I,

I, I, it was a, it was a good reminder
there that like, Yeah, you made this game.

People like it.

Everyone you give it
to is like, Oh, great.

This is awesome.

And like the Kickstarter went well, and
I've been able to sell enough that it, you

know, broke even, but it's like, yeah, now
there's this whole other problem, which is

like, put this thing into people's hands,
get it into stores, get it onto shelves.

And it's like, that's so hard that big
businesses exist to solve that problem.

It's like, that's not, it's not trivial.

It's not like you just make a game and
then it's in everyone's hands, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like it's the same
with, like, creating anything.

Like, if the goal, if the goal is to
sell, like, with books, you hear this

a lot, like, the, the self publishing,
like, there's a reason publishers exist.

And, like, why you make less.

It's because, like, you are, you are
handing over some of the, the upside.

To make sure that you reach a larger
audience with like the stuff that you're

creating And like that's that's like
the the same idea as as like a sales

org in some sense, which is just like
yeah You're gonna you're gonna Spend

a lot more money to hopefully reach
a much broader broader audience Cool.

All

funny just learning these
things from first principles.

Cause there's like this moment where
I was like, it's like, Oh, you know,

it's almost as if I need someone who
already has relationships with every

board game store in the world and has
a large catalog of games to sell and

Man if only there was

me the right place.

Oh, okay.

This was the publisher that I
didn't reach out to 12 months ago.

Got it.

Okay.

Yeah.

I feel like that's like, uh, it's like a
kind of goes back to what we were talking

about earlier with, with like the learning
style, which is just like sometimes to

really learn something like you do, you do
have to just like learn it for yourself.

absolutely.

like some, some people have a really
good skill of just being able to like not

have to go to the school of hard knocks,
but I've, I've never been that person.

Yeah.

All right.

Hit me with another opinion,
what you got on your list.

And then I've got, I've got one after
this that I want to ask you about.

Um, so I think probably
by then we'll, we'll

Okay.

I'll, I'll rapid, I'll rapid fire
through a couple that I don't

actually want to talk about.

I just thought they were
funny to write down.

Uh, I went to, uh, I went to
two different concerts this

week, which was a bit random.

I don't always do that.

Uh, I know it was very exciting.

And I decided, uh, encores are stupid.

I don't think I have to
say a lot more than that.

Just play all the songs
you intend to play,

play them all.

You already know you're going
to fake walk off the stage.

Wait for people to like, then the audience
has to be like, okay, we've got to like

play into this whole song and dance
clap for a while until they show up.

Yes.

Um, okay, related, I think this is
one that we could spend an hour on,

but I just don't think we need to.

I mean, you can tell me whether you
want to go deeper on this or not.

I think the, the, the like
framework wars of Twitter are

completely fake and meaningless.

And, uh, I think that they are mainly
driven by people who are not shipping.

Um, because why would anyone care
what anyone else uses to code?

Uh, I just like learned react for a
project and it was fun and delightful.

And I was like, Oh, cool.

They're solving all the same problems
that I need to solve what I normally write

stuff with, uh, live wire and Alpine.

Cool.

I learned some new techniques.

They made me think a little
differently about it.

Maybe I'll go back to it in the future.

Who cares?

And who cares who else is using this?

Everything is great.

We're all basically
working on the same stuff.

If you're shipping, that's awesome.

If you're not shipping,
go get back to shipping.

Yeah, I, I don't want to
talk about this for an hour

Okay.

Perfect.

I like, I 100 percent agree.

Like that is a strong opinion that I will
strongly hold like no weakness about it.

Like it, the only time that, uh,
technology decision matters in like

what you're going to use to build
something is when it decides like

the, when, like when you're actually
building something and like, you're,

you're also trying to factor in like.

The future and culture of your company.

Because like one thing I, one thing I do
believe is like, it doesn't matter what

you write anything in personally, as long
as you are competent and can get it built.

It does matter when you are going to
be building a team and a culture around

something for a long period of time, only
because like there, there are differences.

And ethos for like frameworks, um, based,
based on like what those frameworks hold

to be like important in the community.

And like, you can kind of get a vibe for
that pretty much like, without having

to do too much work, like the, the ethos
of rails community is different than the

ethos of the Laravel community and the
JavaScript community and the like Elixir,

like functional programming community.

Like all of the type of people that you
will be working with in the community.

Ways that they approach problem
solving are going to be different.

So like when you're starting a new project
that, you know, you're going to have to

hire people for over a longer period of
time, then the technology matters because

like that decides the type of people
you're going to be working with and

like the way that y'all solve problems.

So like to me that, that, Is the only
time it matters when it does not matter

is when you're like worrying about like
some other indie hacker who is trying

to build something or trying to build
some business, like who cares what

technology and other businesses using
it, like it only matters when it's

your business and it's because you're
trying to like form like a specific like

culture and approach to your product.

Yes.

relate to the initial topic of this,
which is just like, I, I'm distinguishing

in my mind between like, the people
who are just like maniacally shipping

cool things, and like the commentariat,
like the commentating class,

Oh, I love that.

The commentary that is
officially a new thing.

I'm writing this one down.

Yeah.

Um.

All right.

Other ones that I have,
uh, you stop me anywhere.

I'll, I'll get, I'll, I'll just
stop it in on any of these,

uh, that you, that you want.

You get to, you get to pick the last one.

Okay.

Uh, um, uh, people don't know.

Yeah, here we go.

I think I've got four here.

People don't know what free speech means.

Um, most productivity tools are
fake and everything should really

just be documents and spreadsheets.

Uh, yeah.

one recently.

That was a good one.

People should embrace snobbery because
life is way too short for mediocre stuff.

Um, and finally, changing your mind
is a virtue, but most people most

of the time don't want to, and you
should not waste your time trying

to change other people's minds
because they're not really listening.

Interesting.

Okay.

So, the one I think I like
the most is the third one.

The, um, Snobbery.

Okay,

I like that one.

I like that one because, like, I am a
very, I'm very much a, Salt, like, Salt

of the Earth is, like, what people use
to, like, phrase things when they just

mean, like, Like, I don't know enough to
be a snob, you know, like, oh yeah, like I

don't, I've not done enough things to like
have an opinion on that until recently,

like I, I recently like, uh, on like one
very specific topic, I started losing

weight about a year and some change ago.

I like, I've lost like 115 pounds.

And like, as a, yeah, like, as a result
of that, thank you, as a result of that,

like, I've cooked a whole lot of meat,
like a whole lot of steak, a whole lot

of chicken, like a bunch of protein.

Like, cause that's like, my approach
was like, go heavy on protein, um, and

like, as long as you're like protein
focused, you get full, filled up pretty

fast and you don't really want to be
eating a bunch of other stuff too.

So, so anyway, so like, because of that.

Like I cooked a lot of different stuff
a lot of different ways and like I

now have like very Like now I'm just
like I don't want to eat that like

I'm gonna cook it like I now like this
very specific thing cook This very

specific way using this technique.

Yes.

I know like you might not have this I
saw somebody else talk about this too

where they're just like like yeah Like
I have a sous vide and I love using it

And like you, every man doesn't have a
sous vide, but, and like, I can't go on

Reddit and talk about like these things
with people because like, then people are

just like, what do you mean you have that?

Like, I could cook a steak
for like 5, blah, blah, blah.

You know, like, so it's like,
but like, no, like, I understand

that, but like, I care about this.

because it is like literally
part of every day of my life.

So like I recently had like a very strong
opinion about that same, that same shape.

But like, what is, what got
you thinking about that?

If

to eat a whole lot of food in your life.

Uh, and it's like, I always, men
are particularly insufferable about

this where they're like, I couldn't
cook anything if I wanted to.

Oh, don't, don't set me
loose in the kitchen.

I'm like, do you understand how much
better your life would be if you spent

like literally even, even three hours,
like watching YouTube videos about how

to cook, like, like how much better your
life would be if you just like embrace

this anyway, the food is a great example.

The thing that got me going on it was, uh,
I got, uh, Like, I don't think of myself

really as like a like a cinephile or a
movie buff or anything like I like movies

a lot, and, um, I am not like, I don't
want to give the impression that I'm out

here like watching like deep cryptic black
and white foreign films every day like,

you know, but like, I like good movies,
and I, you know, I don't Because I'm just

like busy and I'm engaged to be married
and I spend a lot of time with my family

and whatever and, you know, work out.

It's like, I don't even have kids yet, but
I'm like, time is time is quite limited.

And so at the end of the day, when I turn
something on, I'm like, I have this giant

list of movies that I want to get through.

And like, there's like thousands of
really good movies that I haven't seen.

Right.

And.

I will talk to people about what they're
watching and people will be like, Oh,

you should watch this new Netflix show.

And, uh, you know, I'm like, is it good?

And they're like, well, you
know, season one is like, okay.

And then like seasons two
through three are terrible.

Then season four is like
kind of interesting again.

And I'm like,

How did you get to season four?

Yeah, I'm like, are you insane?

Like you're gonna, do you understand
that your time on earth is limited

and that you're going to die one day?

Like, how are you spending your life?

Like, like, it makes me crazy.

It really makes me crazy.

And I'm like, do you understand?

Like, Like, it's just like
Stanley Kubrick, like one of the

undisputed goats, you know, like
he only made like 10 movies.

If you want to watch every Stanley Kubrick
movie back to back, that's like 26 hours.

That's two seasons of TV.

Like, why not watch every
Stanley Kubrick movie?

Or like, and I'm not saying you
have to go watch like heavy, intense

stuff, like watch Goodfellas.

Watch, you know, watch Scorsese
movies, like watch, uh, whatever.

Like, or watch like, even like,
Ocean's 11 or something like it.

It doesn't have to be sort of like
high art, but like, for goodness

sake, like watch something.

Like there's a, so much
good stuff out there.

Why are you like, it seems like people
are just like drooling at the mouth,

watching just these awful, awful
streaming shows that they don't even like.

And when I, and when I bring this up,
people are like, someone said this to me

this past week and they were like, wow,
John, you, you must be such a centiphile.

And they said it with that little
bit of like snark in their voice.

And I'm like.

Yeah, how dare I want
to watch good movies?

Like what are you crazy?

Am I

dare you not want to waste your time?

Yeah, I'm

Especially when you think about
it, like a whole season of TV

is so much time, like so much

much

Okay.

So I've got what my wife, uh, Allie, um,
you may know her from like my comments on

Yeah.

It's here.

It's here on

of me.

So yeah, I'm going to roast
her back for just a second.

Um, which I don't ever do, but you
know, we'll see if she listens and

we'll find out probably pretty quickly.

Um, she has like the, I don't, I
think I heard you say something

about like you'd much rather watch
a movie than, than a TV show.

She's, she's the exact,
the exact opposite.

Like, she hates movies.

I don't know why.

It makes no sense to me why
she doesn't like movies.

She's told me why.

Like, I could tell you why she
says she doesn't like them.

Uh, but it's, like, but she loves movies.

TV shows, like give me a TV show and
then I'm like, but Allie, like you'll

binge watch like four episodes of
something that will then end up being

either somewhere between at a minimum,
like two hours to a maximum of like

four hours plus, and then, and then
you'll be like, but a movie's too long.

I'm

Yes, and I totally get that too

Like, A movie may be long, but like
you get the full story arc of like

an entire, like, you get the opening,
you get the, the build and you get the

climax and the finish and the, like the
resolution, all of it in a single sitting,

whereas like a TV show, I mean, that's
why I think that's why they get you.

It's just like nothing ever,
like nothing ever resolves.

So you're just

The business model hurts

another one.

Yeah.

The business model totally jams it up.

Like, and I, I've had this before
where like you get into like the second

season, uh, of a show and they're
like, Oh, by the way, like, did you

know that this like side character is
in like a terrible domestic situation?

You're like, Oh, I didn't, Oh gosh, no.

I really care about this.

Yeah.

And they're like, well,
it's still not resolved.

You know, I was like, I remember
I was, yeah, I, I don't,

I don't like that at all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, um,

big fan of The Bear.

Like, of TV shows, like, shows like,
uh, like if I had to pick top, it'd

be like The Bear, um, Newsroom,
uh, from HBO, uh, like Sherlock.

Some of these, like, these are
the type of shows where I'm just

like, oh man, these are the greats.

Like, but like season three
of The Bear, I think hurt.

Because of the exact thing that you're
talking about, which was they decided

to go on every side quest and never
Resolved anything by the end of the

show to where like everyone's opinion on
season three was like Nothing happened.

You filmed a whole lot of really
great, like, it's very artistic.

Like it's very, it's beautiful.

It's very well done, but like everyone's
frustrated because nothing resolved.

And I sat through all of this stuff.

Like the one thing people want to know
just like simmered the entire time.

yeah, it's really, it's, it's, it's,
it's kind of crazy making to me.

know, I do, and I get it too.

I mean, we, uh, Lindsay and I are in
the middle of some shows and like, we

had that the other night actually, where
we were like, I said, I was like, I

don't think I have a whole movie in me.

And then we turned on the wire
and watched like three episodes.

So it was like, that was weird.

We spent three hours and we,
we could have watched, you

know, like a really long movie

thing.

My wife's a kindergarten
teacher, which is just like.

Mentally.

exhausting.

And so there'll be that we are
watching the diplomat right now on

Netflix, which is a fantastic show.

Yeah.

I really liked that one
because it's like very deep.

Uh, and like it, it, uh, the way
I described it to somebody was

like, they don't hold your hand.

They just go, and you gotta keep up.

Like, they don't re explain things, they
don't try to connect the dots for you.

It's like, no, like, they're saying
something in Season 2, Episode 2,

that happened in Season 4, Episode
4, like, Season 1, Episode 4, and

like, you've just got to, like,
remember and have paid attention.

So like, that, like, I love that, because
they're like, no, you're all adults.

Um, and then, the, the exact, um, So
like, on nights, there's basically

like, we get the mood from each
other of like, okay, uh, like, was

today a really hard day at school?

Like, kindergarteners can be rough.

Like, how mentally drained are you?

And it's like, do we need to re watch
an episode of Parks and Rec tonight

so you can just like, mentally relax?

Or like, do we watch The Diplomat where
it's like, you gotta be like, Focus in.

So it's like what you say, where
it's like, yeah, like you might

watch the same time, but like your
brain is, your brain is not there.

Like, you're not, you're zone,
you're using that as like a

form of, like, meditation.

Uh.

Mm

totally.

Yeah, so I think I just, my, my just point
about that is like, I, I think that there

was, there's a, there were, there was some
time in our culture, I don't know, I've

had it too, where I'm like, I'm like, oh,
don't be a snob, you know, oh, that's like

the worst thing you could be as a snob.

And I'm like, Give me a break, like, we,
like, you know the difference between

good and bad, and, like, I, I don't, I
don't think you need to, like, uh, go

live your life at an art museum, but,
like, uh, like, embracing good stuff

and saying, no, I'm actually not gonna

on good stuff.

Like, being, being, having opinions
that something can be bad is okay.

Like, you're allowed to say things suck.

Ha

assessing Love Island and
saying, you know what, I'm

actually not going to watch Love.

I'm actually not going to use my life,
my precious hours left on this earth.

I'm not going to use those
watching Love Island.

Yes.

that's

Before we watch this show, let me
just show you this, uh, one piece

of paper that shows you every
weekend you have left in your life.

And then let's reassess if you
want to watch this right now.

That's funny.

Okay.

Well, I've got to probably
wrap it up here soon.

There was one more thing
that I wanted to ask you.

Um, that we may not have time to like
fully cover, but like whether or not

this gets answered here or is like
something that you just now know I

want to like discuss with you in the
future, um, is you said this thing,

um, that happened when you were working
on one of your games where, uh, you

got to a point where you knew all the
problems in the game, like you knew the

full game, you knew all the problems
that were with its current iteration.

And so you thought.

I'm just going to redesign the game
now with all of this knowledge and

basically made a new game and lost
all the magic of the original game.

And that concept just like, hit.

And I was just like, oh man, like, I
think a bunch of people need to hear that.

Like, that is such a good Like,
such a cautionary tale, just in

general, in like, whether it's
game design or like, software.

Like, that, that idea that you can do
that, where it's like, you have this

hubris of like, Oh, well now I know
all the problems, so I'm going to

redo what was existing to solve those
problems, and then losing, losing

what made it special along the way.

Let's see.

I mean, it was really interesting.

It's also a super interesting time for
you to ask that question because earlier

today I just put up on blue sky a picture
of this very game, which we are now about

to go do a prototype of because we started
working on it like over six years ago.

Yeah.

Almost seven years ago, um, and, and
then dropped off for a few years.

And in the middle of that, we like
came back and we were like, we think we

know everything that's wrong with this
game and tried to just like piecemeal

it back together with new rules.

And we were like, this
is completely different.

Like you said, um, but it made
us actually walk away from

the game partly for a while.

I mean, there's a number of factors
there, but we came back recently and

we're just like, what was it about?

Like, I think what that
experience helped us to do was.

We, it helped us to
then describe the magic.

The component parts that make up
something, if you kind of like mix them

all around and restructure them, you
do not have the original thing anymore.

And when we did that, it was a real eye
opening moment for us to realize that.

But I think, more importantly, what
it really prompted us to do was to

go back and say, If we just lost, I'm
doing giant air quotes, uh, the magic.

What was the magic?

Let's put words to it.

Yeah, and we realized that, like, there
are these things, there are these parts

of the game, for example, of like, we're
like, well, the original felt like you

were exploring a world and it no longer
feels like that, like, whatever we do,

we need to make sure that's part of it,
or, you know, whatever there were, there

are a number of things we wrote out a
list of things like that, that were like,

Hold on, like, what was the stuff we were
taking for granted that is now missing?

And we are sad that it's missing.

And we came back and like, actually kind
of like reverted a version, um, which is

also as a side note, I've started keeping
track of rule of like my board game rules.

And like, there's a
ton of cards and stuff.

I have it all in GitHub.

Uh, and I like make pull requests
into the rule book for myself.

And.

Um, yeah, and like the cards are
just these like, uh, really long JSON

files and, uh, which is also nice
because then I can like import it into

Figma and stuff to make prototypes.

But it's really interesting because
I can like actually like, it's like,

okay, let's like literally revert a
version and be like, how do we get

back to where we still had magic?

Now like, let's solve these
problems in a different way,

uh, which is super interesting.

That's really, okay.

So I, what I love about that was
like, when I originally heard you say

that the, the instinct that I had was
like, okay, don't redesign things, you

know, like don't redo an entire thing.

But to me, like what you're saying
from that is actually like doing that

was good because before we didn't know
what the magic was, but when we lost

it, we were able to actually like.

pinpoint what was special about it.

So like, it's almost like the reverse,
which goes back to, um, like what

we were talking about earlier, like
the start of this, which might be a

nice little bow on top of this, um,
which is like, you have to do stuff.

Um, so like, so by redoing, You might
get things wrong, but like, now you can,

like, by redoing that game, because of
good intentions, like, there are these

problems, let's try to solve the game now,
again, knowing these problems at the end,

then you lose something along the way, now
you can iterate again to say like, Okay.

We solved those problems,
but we lost this.

Now we know what that is.

So it's like, you, uh, you,
you iterate forward instead

Mm hmm.

getting mired and stuck, afraid
to lose something that you have.

Like, just because you have
something that's working, the

lesson is not like, don't break it.

The lesson is like, Break it so
you can know what, what breaks, you

know, like that, that's not the right
wording for it, but it's like, don't

No, it's totally right.

because then like you, you uncover
what made it work in the first place.

If you don't already know, if you don't
already know that, which is sometimes a

lot of the case for like software that
like slowly evolves in a market over time.

Like suddenly you have a product with
a bunch of customers that they like and

you don't always know exactly what it is.

Like it's just like this amorphous.

Blob of like, well, people like this
thing we've made, but it's really

hard to like pinpoint the details of
like, how can we still improve this?

Um, while still keeping what people
like about it, we'll start changing

things and talk to users about those
changes and you'll quickly find out what

was great about it in the first place.

Let's

and, and I think if you have this
gets at like, I mean, the talk that

the other talk that I want to do is
basically all about how this is all

safe and well and good as long as you
have a, like, basically a retro and

review process, um, which I think is
the only meeting that's actually non

negotiable is like just retro everything.

And it's like, look at, because then
you have a safe context in which you

can try something new and then go.

Well, now we're talking about
it in the retro, and everyone

agrees the magic is gone.

Let's try it again next week.

Let's try it again next week.

Let's try it again next week.

You know, just stay in motion.

Yeah.

So good.

Well, I think that wraps it up.

We've got to head, we've got to
head to the doctor here soon.

Um, with Palmer, you want to come
say, Hey, can you say Hey to Mr.

John?

Um, he said, how are you?

I'm good.

Good.

We've been better a little sick
today, but I appreciate, appreciate

you coming on today, Johnny.

It was great to meet,
uh, and get to hang out.

Um, we'll go ahead and
wrap things up here.

Thanks for having me.

It's great to meet you.

Absolutely.

See ya.

Bye.

Bye!